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Ah, that’s why Napoleon is taboo. Because he killed mostly Europeans.
…
This is a rare L; Hitler is mainstream taboo because he is one of the few figures of the few movements which is associated with industrialized genocide as its core cause.
There are a lot of genocidal shitheads who don’t get the infamy they deserve in history, make no mistake, and some of them skirt by because of racism. But Hitler being Enemy #1 has much more to do with how and why than where.
… though, related to the trio mentioned, that Churchill is excluded from the likes of Leopold in the popular imagination is certainly a travesty. Four years of service does not redeem forty years of inhumanity.
Moreover, the absolute determination to finish what they started is horrifying. Even as they were losing the war in '43 and '44, they still used their precious locomotives and resources to continue killing over, say, moving troops or resources around. That level of tenacity is, to my knowledge, rare in the history of genocide. Please do correct me if I am wrong though!
No, you’re absolutely correct. It’s one of the more bizarre aspects of the entire Nazi lunacy.
isnt the british empire seen as bad?
What a truly diumb-fuck take
I am unconvinced of the “because Hitler had European victims.”
Everyone knows Pol Pot and he didn’t kill any Europeans. Same with Mao Zedong and Stalin.
Also, the “Young Turks” kill Europeans. Everyone knows of the Armenian Genocide, but the Assyrian Genocide, the Greek Genocide, and the Great Famine of Mount Lebanon are often forgotten about.
Leopold II is on lists of the biggest death tolls by dictatorships
Going back to that one single list, and not all of the others that may list them differently, every know about numbers 1,2,3.
Anyway, all of this to say, there is only a very thin veil of civility to the world. We could die in the next.
I feel like Leopold is definitely in the “absolutely massive cunt” gang. Right folks? Right?
What about Mao Zedong? He had a pretty ridiculous kill count as well
He is a honorary european that’s why he is considered a great guy by
nobodyeverybody.but he also killed landlords, so…
Well I’m sure at least some of the people hitler killed were landlords too.
there’s a different between killing a minority where some of them happened to be landlords, than straight up targeting landlords.
it’s Lemmy, talk about class war and you’ll make friends.
talk about antiracism and they get their pitchforks.
No, because Hitler started second world war which resulted in 60-70 million deaths.
Not to mention inventing a new kind of war crime, genocide. (Or at least being the main inspiration for the term)
I mean genocide wasn’t new, but industrializing it at the scale that he did was new.
And also because he lost said war.
Had he won, different narative!
Hitler and Nazi Germany have been lionized unlike the others because it makes the countries that beat them look better.
In reality they were stupid racist weirdos who were constantly infighting. But that doesn’t make beating them sound heroic.
I wouldn’t call people who came up with the first production cruise missile stupid. Don’t underestimate the enemy
Yes they were quite good at building targets for the RAF and British anti-air gunners. Nice and loud, slow, and flew in a perfectly straight line.
They also came up with the first ballistic missile but it killed more people in production than it did when deployed.
Half the designs from Paperclip were basically unusable, and mainly existed as fake projects to convince Hitler and later the Allies that they were worth keeping around.
Not to mention their obsession with wonder weapons wasted tons of material on things that just wouldn’t work. And how they never built a heavy bomber because they were obsessed with making it a dive bomber.
They were absolutely idiots, and the more I learn about them the stupider they get. They invaded Russia in the winter for Christ’s sake! They waited to tell Hitler about Normandy because it was too early in the morning! They’re so dumb!
Also; They’re not the enemy anymore because their dumbasses lost, so I can call them dumb.
Hey just gonna point out that invading Russia in the winter would actually be the second best season to do it, since Russia has 4 seasons spring (mud), summer, fall (mud), and winter (really cold) frankly speaking the mud is what fucked the Nazis over more than anything else since it bogged them down completely.
Napoleon was the one who basically got shit canned by the winter since modern logistics didn’t exist yet and the Russians destroyed all the food while in retreat allowing winter to finish off the attrition.
Yeah but you also have to send your troops winter weather gear, which those idiots didn’t do.
That is also true, was moreso pointing out that invading Russia in winter isn’t the dumbest thing to do. But yeah not giving your troops winter gear is braindead.
I think one description that fits for them is “too smart for their own good.”
All that wasted manpower and resources and building massive tanks and incredibly intricate guns that never quite worked properly.
I think their true stupidity was their organization and leadership. A shitty plane or gun or tank would get made because the higher-ups wanted it.
And the fascist idea that competition will inevitably produce the best results - social/technical Darwinism, essentially - meant that the design team that could be pushier and flashier would win over actually good designs.
Plus they kicked out or imprisoned hundreds of great scientists because they were from undesirable classes, further hamstringing their technology.
Also; They’re not the enemy anymore because their dumbasses lost, so I can call them dumb.
I’m talking in general. Obv nazi germany hasn’t existed for a long time. It’s better to overestimate than underestimate imo
True, but that doesn’t explain why the History Channel made a bunch of breathless documentaries about the power of the Nazis fifty years after they were defeated
Aren’t those the same guys that love dipping into conspiracy territory when it’s late enough? Then the answer is money
of Europeans, that’s the point.
Churchill was responsible for the Bengal famine that kill up to 3.8 million civilians. but they weren’t white, so it is not taught in history
Hmm yes accidentally contributing to a famine of 3.8 million casualties because of wartime shortages is comparable to the 60 to 70 million attributed to the guy that fucking started the war in the first place and also systematically executed 6 million of his own citizens and of neighboring countries and enslaved millions more.
Look I’m sure Churchill was a right wanker but the specific cultural ethnicities of dead people is not why Hitler is demonized more than him.
All Hitler did was apply European colonialism to Europe. not that different than what Europe was doing for centuries. that is a fact. Europe wasn’t a group of good guys until bad Germany appeared. they were all busy with that colonial bullshit.
Are you telling me that the European led ethnic cleansing of the the Americas for territorial expansion isn’t lebensraum?
I’m am definitely not trying to push nazi appologia by saying “they were all bad”, just that we can’t ignore the horrors those allied nations committeed as well. Hitler imported a lot of his racism from the US. it’s always nations fucking the world, making the people suffer, then the victors painting themselves as heroes and beacons of civilization.
“accidentally contributing”
Imagine the food that you grew taken away from you to make rations for the same colonial forces that have subdued your people, and call it an accident.
Civilians of a fertile land in a no-war zone were starved to death, arguably one of the most terrible way to go. I am not even going to quote the racist letter in reply to when he was informed of the starving people. Need I point out that Churchill is not universally vilified in the UK? So yes this meme does make sense, just not in the way you think.
That’s a stupid and plainly wrong point. Do you think that World War was limited to Europe?
according to My highschool education, mostly yes.
and that massacre was not the fault of Germany, but due to British policies.
Hitler is the big evil no doubt about it. The allies was not innocent either many promised people from their colonies but never intended to respect it. If hitler did not declare war on them they would have let hitler exterminate the jews
Yes, that’s what ‘second world war’ means. Do you think it’s any different now with m*scovia?
The way the war was described was the perfect good caring allies was fighting the evil Hitler. Of course Hitler and the axis was the worse but the allies wasn’t good either.
One of the worse thing the allies did was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
I’ve never argued that allies were *good* soviets hated jews as much as nazis, and killed people en masse for breathing wrong way.
I didn’t mean that this is what you believe. I am just saying that’s how it is portrayed by the winners . Not only soviets but the british, usa, france etc was not good either
Yeah… Winston Churchill’s initiatives killed plenty of Europeans. The main reason Hitler is demonized is because he lost the war, that’s how history works.
And to be fair the main reason why Rhoades and especially Leopold aren’t on the same level as Hitler is because most people don’t really study history. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim Leopold was a good dude, he was ostracized in his own lifetime once his crimes were made public.
Hitler is history too, though.
So why do we study the history of Hitler, but not Leopold?
Because even Belgians don’t give a shit about Belgium.
Mainly because it suits the propaganda purposes of western nations, but also because it is such a modern topic that is still in living memory. Give ww2 another hundred years and it wont likely be the cultural touch stone it is today.
Plus, most Western nations were actually involved in the European front of ww2 to a large degree. Ask most people about the Pacific front and the crimes committed by the Japanese empire and you won’t get the same responses.
How many King Leopold apologists have you met?
Plenty of Churchill boot lickers
How is that an answer?
that there’s plenty of colonisers who were basically as bad as Hitler, but because they focused their horrors to the colonial perifery no one really cares. and are often celebrated as heroes.
that’s the whole point of the post.
Hitler is hated because he tried to colonize Europe, while most European nations where doing basically the same in Africa/Asia.
Leopold is celebrated as a hero? After what he did in Congo? In all these years, I haven’t met a single Belgian who doesn’t think he was a monster.
Churchill is
Again. That was not the thing that was asked.
that’s what the post is, and even though no one really celebrates Leopold, he’s not given the same popular hatred as Hitler, and mostly remembered as one bad person in history, like colonialism wasn’t that bad, he was just a bad colonial
I think it was the gas chambers
which he used on Europeans, if he put then on a colony to kill non whites no one would have cared.
like no one cared when the Brits invented concentration camps, or mass starvation on their colonies.
A lot of people cared about that, and you’re putting history out of order.
Also, Jews aren’t necessarily of European descent… that’s a big part of why the Nazis were obsessed with killing them.was not taught that in school, or heard about it in any forum, until I searched it for myself. don’t think any WW2 documentary I watched even mentioned that.
it’s part of history the west is actively trying to ignore. but genocide on white people? that’s unacceptable. yhea, jews weren’t considered white then. but Hitler was hated not for his imperialism and racism. but because he applied that imperialism and racism to Europe.
Yeah? Did you go to school in America by chance?
They don’t really teach much at all about colonialism or the native American genocide…Hitler was definitely hated for his imperialism and racism… It’s just way way more complicated than your redux here.
… I present to you as evidence:
Mr. Hitler - by Lead Bellywent to school in Spain, better education than USA, But still eurocentric
point being that plenty of European colonials who did what Hitler did, but to the Colonial perifery are treated as heroes.
I do appreciate your perspective…
I went to an American school with a good system in elementary, even had a “gifted program” for smarter kids… and then a shitty one when we moved. Each state is like its own country in a lot of ways.
But well for one, European countries are bound to be more upset when they themselves are attacked just because it’s themselves getting attacked…
For two, by that time imperialism was no longer seen as an okay thing to do… A lot of countries kept their colonies but they weren’t invading new countries or outright enslaving people anymore.
For three, the Nazis were industrially exterminating an entire race out of pure spite. The only other comparible level of extermination would be America (sorry btw… At least im enough Native American that I get to hate myself… Plus I’m part Pawnee… A tribe that helped the US military hunt other tribes out of revenge)[Lakotas basically genocided the Pawnee right before white people showed up]
But even that was more about not being able to fight them… Not just killing them to kill them…
…
At least we can bask in our white guilt together.
Spain sure has a terrible history in the Americas.i won’t deny that Nazi Germany was the worst. I’m not trying to downplay them. just what they did was what Europe has been doing and was currently doing to the rest of the world. Not sure if that counts as the imperial boomerang. but it’s similar. Europe spent centuries colonizing and conducting ethnic cleansings and genocides whenever it pleased, until one European nation decided to do that to Europe.
Fascism was definitely a form of the imperial boomerang, when the colonial government abuse and absolute power it held in the colonial perifery was imported into the nation proper.
I have family that escaped Poland who told me all my family that stayed where killed. But we shouldn’t let history white wash the rest of Europe either.
Varies by state, city, school. My school had us visit a Japanese-American internment camp in person and made direct comparisons to Nazi concentration camps
We didn’t go into a ton of detail on specific events, but we were taught in no uncertain terms that the US is built on the lands of brutally slaughtered native peoples and the backs of people who were abducted into forced labor as if they were animals, and whose descendents still suffer systematic injustice to this day
Some of this I think comes down to documentation. We have so much documented evidence from every level of administration of the rise, crimes, and fall of the Third Reich.
Leopold and Rhodes I think enjoy the obscurity of the 19th century/pre-World War 1 world. Even with direct and clear connections to modern society or even WW2, they operated at a time when monarchies dominated Europe. It’s just enough of a costume change to have them appear irrelevant.
JFC, talking about idiotic blurps that should not leave your mouth (or in this case, fingers)
