subversive_dev

Well, I also think it’s extremely unlikely that the entire system is going to capitulate this easy, but I think we can’t rule that out either

I want this to be true but we can’t rule out his signature headfake + sneak attack combo

This, I agree with

It seems we’ve reached an impasse. I’m not interested in doing a sources duel when you refuse to engage with anything else. The idea that media can be neatly characterized into “propaganda” and “not propaganda” is childish and absurd at face. This will be my final reply

Asking you to back up your claim

That’s a very interesting way to put “ignoring the interesting questions and coming back with the smug taunt”

Which is what you did again here.

Media control is a system that works across a whole society. I’m sure you believe that about China.

I ask again for the final time: What evidence of that pernicuous and pervasive system existing in the West would you accept?

Ok, if you insist on doing it the debatebro way

Here’s the first 3 BBC examples from https://lemmy.ml/c/ManufacturingConsent (all posted within the last week)

• https://lemmy.ml/post/44591370
• https://lemmy.ml/post/44591278
• https://lemmy.ml/post/44503503

Inb4 “those don’t prove anything”

Yes, I asked you what evidence you would accept so will you answer that now?

Do you see now why that’s actually the interesting question?

It could be argued that you are the one making the claim. Why is the default assumption that the sources are trustworthy until proven otherwise?

Even if I accepted the burden of proof, what evidence of this would you accept?

Do you think you can read about it in your favored Western sources?

And you think all three of those are meaningfully independent from the anglo-american military/espionage cartel?

That claim is ridiculous. Name a single media source that does not slavishly serve the political context it arises from

What news source, pray tell, is not propaganda?

I only get my news from trusted CIA cutouts owned by billionaire oligarchs

Presumably the ferocious military censorship in the entity

I don’t speak for anyone else regarding the Ukraine war. When this war started I originally favored the Ukrainian side.

Frankly, now is the time for hyperbole. The Ukrainians are still critically short of men. That has been true for years and keeps getting worse. If I was trying to be persuasive maybe I would be more circumspect but as I mentioned I don’t really care right now.

If the Ukrainians really had any chance of winning, they would not bother with media counter-offensives, wunderwaffen obsession, or absurd inflation of Russian casualties.

It definitely is not whataboutism, it’s literal cause and effect. Doing years of ethnic cleansing is casus belli.

New day, new patience apparently.

The increase in oil price and softening of US sanctions will benefit the Russians, but it won’t make the war economy sustainable.

According to who? The sanctions can’t be “on the verge” of working and also not be that important at the same time. We’re talking about DOUBLE revenue on a per-barrel basis (so far!). Sanctions work by slowly choking out the supply of dollars until an economy suffocates. A flood of new dollars DOES completely reverse years of sanctions. So unless you believe the sanctions were not working (which I do by the way) then this matters a lot.

Western armories are running bare, but the same is true for the Russian ones. Both Ukraine and Russia are mostly using equipment as it’s being produced, and both Ukraine and the rest of Europe has been ramping up production capacity.

Do you remember years ago when the Europeans themselves came out and said the Russians were outproducing the entire West in artillery shells 3-to-1? Do you think that only applies to artillery shells? The West has DEINDUSTRIALIZED after decades of neglect, outsourcing, corruption, and financialization. The energy crisis in Europe is only shifting this into high gear.

Both Ukraine and Russia are mostly using equipment as it’s being produced

What evidence is there for this? You think the Russians have only made 2 Oreshnik missles? You think they are only making a few hundred Gerans a week?

The high energy prices are a problem in Europe, but compared to the situation in Russia (or Ukraine, for that matter) there’s nothing EXTREME about it.

This is honestly laughable. Europe is dying under the weight of their own vassalage. What do you think it means to have the highest energy prices in the world? How does that effect an industrial economy? Why did Volkswagen stop production at their main plant for the first time ever? Now it’s about to get MUCH WORSE because Europe was extremely dependent on Quatari LNG. That LNG isn’t waiting for the strait to open, it’s already not being produced and liquefied, leaving a permanent gap in the world supply.

The reason peace negotiations have been hopeless, is because the Ukrainians and the Russians can’t agree on where the war is headed

Well you could say that. The West believes it’s own propaganda which has been propping up this war for 3 years when it was already lost (the writing has been on the wall since the ill-fated Zaporizhzhia counteroffensive in '23). The pattern of big huge hype about any territorial gains, trailing off into ashamed whimpers in the press, has been followed in every disastrous “media counteroffensive” since: Kursk, Pokrovsk, Kupiansk, and now Dnipropetrovsk. THE UKRAINIANS ARE CRITICALLY SHORT OF INFANTRY AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. LOOK AT REPORTS FROM ANY GROUND-LEVEL COMMANDER ON THE UKR SIDE. NO AMOUNT OF PRESS-GANGED RETIREES CAN CHANGE THIS.

Who is right is up to us

Spoken like a European

every single demand that the Russians have is against some pretty fundamental international law

Was it against international law when the Banderites engaged with their war against Russian speaking civilians in the Donbass for 8 years? Do you still not know about this because of how completely the wool has been pulled over your eyes by the western media? It’s game over. The media narratives are collapsing under the weight of their own failure. This conversation doesn’t matter any more for the fate of the current war, I’m only bothering so we can all spot the patterns if and when the West attempts to do this bullshit again.

3 factors:

• Whether or not you believe Russia’s economy was “just about to collapse” from sanctions, that is all up in smoke now
• The Western armories were already running bare. Now, Ukraine will probably never receive another air defense interceptor. There won’t be any tomahawks to give even if they got some working ground launchers.
• Ukraine’s European backers were already under tremendous economic strain from having the highest energy prices in the world. They are EXTREMELY exposed to this current energy shock.

The combined forces of the West were already losing before suffering this massive economic shock and gigantic military expenditure

I do not have the patience to have this stupid fight today. Ukraine is definitely a US proxy. Every president since George W Bush has been preparing for and escalating this war. It’s easy to get confused if you get distracted by the puppet show instead of watching the flow of dollars and bombs.

The war in Iran has sealed Ukraine’s fate. All the cards they had left to play have now been neutralized. It doesn’t matter how much propaganda you believe about the Ukraine war because it’s coming to a rapid conclusion

It’s a dark time. I don’t judge you. DMs open if you want to talk

This comment does seem for real, I’ll bite

Hasbara is the name for the Israeli propaganda machine, especially the paid influencers

What I’m describing is in the direction of the worst-case scenario, there are many other scenarios that could unfold - nobody knows.

I personally think suicide is THE difficult moral and philosophical question, I will certainly not be claiming there is an easy answer and I don’t personally like the standard responses like “permanent solution to a temporary problem”

Why did you make the difficult choice to go sober?

You strike me as a hasbara troll, not someone who’s actually depressed. I’m not good at talking people out of suicide anyways.

If you really are thinking of ending your life, talk about it with a trusted friend instead of some assholes on the internet like myself

Now you’re starting to get the gravity of the situation